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	<title>Comments on: On Starting Tacitus</title>
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	<link>http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2004/04/29/on-starting-tacitus/</link>
	<description>faults &#124; sins &#124; abuses</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 18:37:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Clancy</title>
		<link>http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2004/04/29/on-starting-tacitus/#comment-556</link>
		<dc:creator>Clancy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 17:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I haven't read Tacitus (yet), but I have read De Oratore, De Officiis, and Institutio Oratoria. When I had to decide whether to put Cicero or Quintilian on my prelims reading list, it was no contest. And do you know that most people in my stage of the program chose Quintilian?! They don't know what they're missing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t read Tacitus (yet), but I have read De Oratore, De Officiis, and Institutio Oratoria. When I had to decide whether to put Cicero or Quintilian on my prelims reading list, it was no contest. And do you know that most people in my stage of the program chose Quintilian?! They don&#8217;t know what they&#8217;re missing.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2004/04/29/on-starting-tacitus/#comment-557</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 17:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>What's really fun is seeing Cicero apply his rhetorical theory in the orations. The &lt;em&gt;Pro Milone&lt;/em&gt;, &lt;em&gt;In Catilinam&lt;/em&gt;, &lt;em&gt;Pro Caelio&lt;/em&gt;, and &lt;em&gt;Pro Ligario&lt;/em&gt; are all absolutely masterful. It seems to me that Cicero is all about rhetoric, and the politics that accompany rhetoric, while Quintilian is all about education -- and, as an imperially-appointed "chair" of rhetoric in an age when you had to be very careful about speaking out, he &lt;em&gt;didn't&lt;/em&gt; much talk about politics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s really fun is seeing Cicero apply his rhetorical theory in the orations. The <em>Pro Milone</em>, <em>In Catilinam</em>, <em>Pro Caelio</em>, and <em>Pro Ligario</em> are all absolutely masterful. It seems to me that Cicero is all about rhetoric, and the politics that accompany rhetoric, while Quintilian is all about education &#8212; and, as an imperially-appointed &#8220;chair&#8221; of rhetoric in an age when you had to be very careful about speaking out, he <em>didn&#8217;t</em> much talk about politics.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2004/04/29/on-starting-tacitus/#comment-558</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 17:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>On the other hand, the "serious, political" rhetoric of Cicero could really only apply to a very tiny fraction of the Roman population, principally elite men while the merely educational Qunitilian (and the formulaic and derivative treatment of rhetoric which he represents) touched the lives of virtually every Roman citizen and their families, directly or indirectly, by enculturating them in a manner of thought, speech and action that reveals itself in the style of Tacitus and the dreams of Artemidorus.  I wouldn't want to have to pick between the two, but I could find lots of reasons to prefer the cultural ubiquity of Q to the political ascendancy of C.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the other hand, the &#8220;serious, political&#8221; rhetoric of Cicero could really only apply to a very tiny fraction of the Roman population, principally elite men while the merely educational Qunitilian (and the formulaic and derivative treatment of rhetoric which he represents) touched the lives of virtually every Roman citizen and their families, directly or indirectly, by enculturating them in a manner of thought, speech and action that reveals itself in the style of Tacitus and the dreams of Artemidorus.  I wouldn&#8217;t want to have to pick between the two, but I could find lots of reasons to prefer the cultural ubiquity of Q to the political ascendancy of C.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2004/04/29/on-starting-tacitus/#comment-559</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 17:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/archives/2004/04/29/on-starting-tacitus/#comment-559</guid>
		<description>Jim, I'll certainly agree with you (mostly) on the broad influence of Quintilian, and how that broad influence in terms of a systematic and practical theory of education is essential to composition's understanding of itself as a discipline. As far as the relevance of classical Rome to rhet/comp as a field goes, Quintilian's importance can't be overstated. I'll quibble a bit, though, about "virtually every citizen", since Quintilian's school and the practice of rhetorical education was reserved (as acknowledged by Bonner, if memory serves, and others) for the wealthier classes. And as I think you're implying with "directly or indirectly", we all know that there was no rhetorical education for women in ancient Rome. (There's also the minor quibble that Quintilian really had no influence whatsoever on the style of Tacitus, except as someone for Tacitus to sharply critique with some of his comments in the &lt;em&gt;Dialogus&lt;/em&gt;: they're practically polar opposites.)

I'll also agree that the court cases Cicero argued often had to do with the concerns of the &lt;em&gt;boni&lt;/em&gt;, and in that had little relevance to the lives of the lower classes. However, revolution was a &lt;em&gt;huge&lt;/em&gt; concern for Rome, and the profound loss of individual freedom associated with the turn from republic to empire affected every citizen -- and that's what the Philippics were about, and that's what the &lt;em&gt;In Catilinam&lt;/em&gt; was about, and the concentration of power in the hands of a sole individual is a subtext impossible to ignore in &lt;em&gt;Pro Ligario&lt;/em&gt; and the other Caesarean orations. Furthermore, the Verrines (or at least the one that was actually delivered) were of profound imporance to all the citizens of Sicily. So for his political and judicial rhetoric, I don't think Cicero can be so easily discounted in terms of relevance.

Furthermore, while Quintilian certainly put down in writing the system of rhetorical instruction that the Romans inherited and refined from the Greeks (as is clear in Cicero's juvenile &lt;em&gt;De Inventione&lt;/em&gt; and in the debt he acknowledges to Aristotle's &lt;em&gt;Rhetoric&lt;/em&gt;), let's not forget that Cicero -- building on the ideas of Isocrates -- pretty much invented what we now know as the concept of a liberal education.

I completely agree with you that I'd hate to have to choose between them -- but y'know, I &lt;em&gt;enjoy&lt;/em&gt; reading Cicero and Tacitus, and the fact that the sheer gorgeousness of their prose outshines that of every other Roman writer makes grappling with their ideas only more pleasant. I think that's part of what Clancy and I were getting at: the &lt;em&gt;Institutio Oratoria&lt;/em&gt;, as relevant as the ideas are, is a bit of a slog. And, again, apolitical, which -- when we're talking about someone who wrote in the time of Vespasian and Domitian (!) -- is deeply troubling, to say the least. While many today differ on the place of politics in the classroom, I firmly believe that a discipline associated with public discourse can ill afford to wholly ignore political concerns.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim, I&#8217;ll certainly agree with you (mostly) on the broad influence of Quintilian, and how that broad influence in terms of a systematic and practical theory of education is essential to composition&#8217;s understanding of itself as a discipline. As far as the relevance of classical Rome to rhet/comp as a field goes, Quintilian&#8217;s importance can&#8217;t be overstated. I&#8217;ll quibble a bit, though, about &#8220;virtually every citizen&#8221;, since Quintilian&#8217;s school and the practice of rhetorical education was reserved (as acknowledged by Bonner, if memory serves, and others) for the wealthier classes. And as I think you&#8217;re implying with &#8220;directly or indirectly&#8221;, we all know that there was no rhetorical education for women in ancient Rome. (There&#8217;s also the minor quibble that Quintilian really had no influence whatsoever on the style of Tacitus, except as someone for Tacitus to sharply critique with some of his comments in the <em>Dialogus</em>: they&#8217;re practically polar opposites.)</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll also agree that the court cases Cicero argued often had to do with the concerns of the <em>boni</em>, and in that had little relevance to the lives of the lower classes. However, revolution was a <em>huge</em> concern for Rome, and the profound loss of individual freedom associated with the turn from republic to empire affected every citizen &#8212; and that&#8217;s what the Philippics were about, and that&#8217;s what the <em>In Catilinam</em> was about, and the concentration of power in the hands of a sole individual is a subtext impossible to ignore in <em>Pro Ligario</em> and the other Caesarean orations. Furthermore, the Verrines (or at least the one that was actually delivered) were of profound imporance to all the citizens of Sicily. So for his political and judicial rhetoric, I don&#8217;t think Cicero can be so easily discounted in terms of relevance.</p>
<p>Furthermore, while Quintilian certainly put down in writing the system of rhetorical instruction that the Romans inherited and refined from the Greeks (as is clear in Cicero&#8217;s juvenile <em>De Inventione</em> and in the debt he acknowledges to Aristotle&#8217;s <em>Rhetoric</em>), let&#8217;s not forget that Cicero &#8212; building on the ideas of Isocrates &#8212; pretty much invented what we now know as the concept of a liberal education.</p>
<p>I completely agree with you that I&#8217;d hate to have to choose between them &#8212; but y&#8217;know, I <em>enjoy</em> reading Cicero and Tacitus, and the fact that the sheer gorgeousness of their prose outshines that of every other Roman writer makes grappling with their ideas only more pleasant. I think that&#8217;s part of what Clancy and I were getting at: the <em>Institutio Oratoria</em>, as relevant as the ideas are, is a bit of a slog. And, again, apolitical, which &#8212; when we&#8217;re talking about someone who wrote in the time of Vespasian and Domitian (!) &#8212; is deeply troubling, to say the least. While many today differ on the place of politics in the classroom, I firmly believe that a discipline associated with public discourse can ill afford to wholly ignore political concerns.</p>
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