Comments on: The Trajectory of Beer http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2005/08/03/the-trajectory-of-beer/ faults | sins | abuses Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:06:06 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Homer http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2005/08/03/the-trajectory-of-beer/#comment-19051 Homer Mon, 07 Nov 2005 07:51:41 +0000 http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/archives/2005/08/03/the-trajectory-of-beer/#comment-19051 Um.... Huh? Um….

Huh?

]]> By: Stylesignals http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2005/08/03/the-trajectory-of-beer/#comment-17597 Stylesignals Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:38:15 +0000 http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/archives/2005/08/03/the-trajectory-of-beer/#comment-17597 Interesting debate. I think it would be well worth remembering the battle aspect of taste distinctions in all of this, primarily the battle between financial capital and cultural capital. Individuals with large amounts of financial capital will always be more able to purchase the more expensive beers. So the only way people with smaller amounts of financial capital but larger amounts of cultural capital can strike back is to somehow -- through their competence in developing and establishing trends -- label expensive beers as less "cool" than certain cheaper beers. That is what has happened with PBR, for instance. The same has happened with lots of other items as welll. Take cars, for instance. The most expensive car is undoubtedly a Ferrari or something similar, possibly within the reach of a yuppie but probably out of reach to a hipster. Thus, to get even, the hipster uses his cultural insight to define the Ferrari as "garish" or "over the top" -- i.e. not so cool after all. To complement this, the hipster may even go out and buy the exact opposite of a Ferrari, say a quirky Eastern European brand of car they only made 500 copies of in 1973, in an attempt to establish exclusivity in a hierarchy of knowledge as superior to exclusivity in a hierarchy of money. Another fitting example is travel. In Europe, yuppies, typically are the only ones who can afford to go on vacation to rich summer resorts -- i.e. trips that are financially quite expensive, but which require hardly any cultural insight (local culture has been replaced by Western-style night clubs, hotels, etc). Not wanting to be seen as inferior to the yuppies, hipsters try to define such vacation packages as cheesy, preferring "study trips" to impoverished countries in Asia or Africa -- i.e. trips which are financially very cheap, but which require a certain cultural insight (you may need to know the local language, have contacts to get entrance into the country, know which cities and regions are safe for Westerners, etc). Even though they may end up sleeping in a tent surrounded by fleas, eating rice and drinking water, they have been somewhat successful in defining this experience as superior to sleeping in luxury hotels surrounded by waiters and hot girls/boys, eating huge steaks and drinking champagne. Quite a feat! Interesting debate.

I think it would be well worth remembering the battle aspect of taste distinctions in all of this, primarily the battle between financial capital and cultural capital.

Individuals with large amounts of financial capital will always be more able to purchase the more expensive beers. So the only way people with smaller amounts of financial capital but larger amounts of cultural capital can strike back is to somehow — through their competence in developing and establishing trends — label expensive beers as less “cool” than certain cheaper beers. That is what has happened with PBR, for instance.

The same has happened with lots of other items as welll. Take cars, for instance. The most expensive car is undoubtedly a Ferrari or something similar, possibly within the reach of a yuppie but probably out of reach to a hipster. Thus, to get even, the hipster uses his cultural insight to define the Ferrari as “garish” or “over the top” — i.e. not so cool after all. To complement this, the hipster may even go out and buy the exact opposite of a Ferrari, say a quirky Eastern European brand of car they only made 500 copies of in 1973, in an attempt to establish exclusivity in a hierarchy of knowledge as superior to exclusivity in a hierarchy of money.

Another fitting example is travel. In Europe, yuppies, typically are the only ones who can afford to go on vacation to rich summer resorts — i.e. trips that are financially quite expensive, but which require hardly any cultural insight (local culture has been replaced by Western-style night clubs, hotels, etc). Not wanting to be seen as inferior to the yuppies, hipsters try to define such vacation packages as cheesy, preferring “study trips” to impoverished countries in Asia or Africa — i.e. trips which are financially very cheap, but which require a certain cultural insight (you may need to know the local language, have contacts to get entrance into the country, know which cities and regions are safe for Westerners, etc). Even though they may end up sleeping in a tent surrounded by fleas, eating rice and drinking water, they have been somewhat successful in defining this experience as superior to sleeping in luxury hotels surrounded by waiters and hot girls/boys, eating huge steaks and drinking champagne. Quite a feat!

]]> By: Bill http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2005/08/03/the-trajectory-of-beer/#comment-17548 Bill Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:41:47 +0000 http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/archives/2005/08/03/the-trajectory-of-beer/#comment-17548 Smart stuff here, Mike. It's interesting to think of PBR (which I love, by the way) in a tradition of, say, blue jeans and leather jackets. Symbols of working-class culture used self-consciously by professional/middle-class kids in the 50s for complicated reasons involving masculinity, fetishizing working-class life while ironically distancing oneself from it. I think PBR occupies a similar place in middle-class college bars, where drinking a can of PBR has similar gender/identity and class/identity implications. Hebdidge could be helpful as you think through these issues, esp. first chapter of Subculture: The Meaning of Style, the one that focuses on Brit punk. Smart stuff here, Mike. It’s interesting to think of PBR (which I love, by the way) in a tradition of, say, blue jeans and leather jackets. Symbols of working-class culture used self-consciously by professional/middle-class kids in the 50s for complicated reasons involving masculinity, fetishizing working-class life while ironically distancing oneself from it. I think PBR occupies a similar place in middle-class college bars, where drinking a can of PBR has similar gender/identity and class/identity implications. Hebdidge could be helpful as you think through these issues, esp. first chapter of Subculture: The Meaning of Style, the one that focuses on Brit punk.

]]> By: mike http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2005/08/03/the-trajectory-of-beer/#comment-17545 mike Thu, 04 Aug 2005 20:33:58 +0000 http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/archives/2005/08/03/the-trajectory-of-beer/#comment-17545 Rob, I think there's more than material wealth driving the circumstance of PBR's hipness, as perhaps (incompletely) evidenced by <a href="http://sixmile.clemson.edu/pbr.htm" rel="nofollow">this Washington Post story</a> from a couple years ago, or <a href="http://www.frogdesign.com/mind/" rel="nofollow">this brief observation</a> (ninth paragraph down) on "brand irony." So yeah, I think you might have a market for that Hudey after all, pardner -- but really, what you're saying about wealth being a factor in addition to ironic hipness totally reinforces my overall point anyway, which is that class and cultural valuation are overdetermined; shaped and influences by far too many factors for us to be able to point to any single one as determinate. Jim, I might argue that the "brand maturity" was reached a generation ago (my Uncle Stanley has some old PBR-branded bar coasters and a PBR neon sign in his kitchen), which is what allowed for the ironic twist from today's generation. Can I ask which Foucault essays you're thinking of? Rob, I think there’s more than material wealth driving the circumstance of PBR’s hipness, as perhaps (incompletely) evidenced by this Washington Post story from a couple years ago, or this brief observation (ninth paragraph down) on “brand irony.” So yeah, I think you might have a market for that Hudey after all, pardner — but really, what you’re saying about wealth being a factor in addition to ironic hipness totally reinforces my overall point anyway, which is that class and cultural valuation are overdetermined; shaped and influences by far too many factors for us to be able to point to any single one as determinate.

Jim, I might argue that the “brand maturity” was reached a generation ago (my Uncle Stanley has some old PBR-branded bar coasters and a PBR neon sign in his kitchen), which is what allowed for the ironic twist from today’s generation. Can I ask which Foucault essays you’re thinking of?

]]> By: Jim Ridolfo http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2005/08/03/the-trajectory-of-beer/#comment-17544 Jim Ridolfo Thu, 04 Aug 2005 20:11:21 +0000 http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/archives/2005/08/03/the-trajectory-of-beer/#comment-17544 I think Mike's right. PBR is a beer occuping some strange class positions. In Lansing, MI one of the bars described by middle class college kids in East Lansing as a "dive bar" has had its PBR and hotdog special for forever and a day - a buck twenty five for the combo. The bar has a classed stigma that is conversationally and iconically referenced to by its PBR and hotdog special. Then in East Lansing, as is the case in many college towns, there's the situation that on a Friday or Saturday night run to the package store a keg of PBR is one of the cheaper kegs. Buying a keg is usually a group activity and its usually less about the beer than it is about the act of having beer available for a party. I'm sure you'll hear more than a few kids groan a few hours later about their cup of cheap/free PBR. On the same token though PBR as a corporation has done an impressive job of branding and finding new audiences for its product since its GI days. In most college poster stores I've seen PBR posters. PBR t-shirts are popular too. PBR also has a complex logo design that's reached a point of brand maturity, which may impact its class status and account for how it has a class status for hipster kids. I'd wager that its a long (and half a century! journey for a logo such as PBR's to reach a point of brand maturity. I think Foucault's writings on the class value of food and drink may, in more advanced capitalism, (and I'm sure this has been somebodys old and filed thesis, somewhere) be said to apply to this type of symbolic value too. Interesting stuff -jim I think Mike’s right. PBR is a beer occuping some strange class positions. In Lansing, MI one of the bars described by middle class college kids in East Lansing as a “dive bar” has had its PBR and hotdog special for forever and a day - a buck twenty five for the combo. The bar has a classed stigma that is conversationally and iconically referenced to by its PBR and hotdog special.

Then in East Lansing, as is the case in many college towns, there’s the situation that on a Friday or Saturday night run to the package store a keg of PBR is one of the cheaper kegs. Buying a keg is usually a group activity and its usually less about the beer than it is about the act of having beer available for a party.

I’m sure you’ll hear more than a few kids groan a few hours later about their cup of cheap/free PBR.

On the same token though PBR as a corporation has done an impressive job of branding and finding new audiences for its product since its GI days. In most college poster stores I’ve seen PBR posters. PBR t-shirts are popular too. PBR also has a complex logo design that’s reached a point of brand maturity, which may impact its class status and account for how it has a class status for hipster kids. I’d wager that its a long (and half a century! journey for a logo such as PBR’s to reach a point of brand maturity. I think Foucault’s writings on the class value of food and drink may, in more advanced capitalism, (and I’m sure this has been somebodys old and filed thesis, somewhere) be said to apply to this type of symbolic value too.

Interesting stuff

-jim

]]> By: Rob http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2005/08/03/the-trajectory-of-beer/#comment-17542 Rob Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:39:25 +0000 http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/archives/2005/08/03/the-trajectory-of-beer/#comment-17542 PBR me ASAP! I don't intend on plotting PBR on your diagram, however I do intend on weighing in on the subject a bit. I don't know what it is like in your neck of the woods, but the only trucker hat hipsters we have around here are between the ages of 14 and 25 and I have yet to see any of them walking around with a can (or bottle) of PBR. I see them with beer, but I think it has more to do with cost than choice. Just like you and I drank Old Milwaukee when we were younger (legalities aside) because it was the beer of choice for people without money. Once I started earning a somewhat respectable income I began to realize that OM pretty much sucks in the taste department. I would hold that the same is true about PBR. If an individual is drinking it now they probably fall into one of maybe two categories: 1. Broke 2. Drank it as a kid and are still broke. These two theories have one common denominator: Being broke. Now I'm being a little tongue in cheek here so forgive me, but do you actually know anyone who drinks PBR because they like it or because they think it is "cool". If that's the case I have some old Red White & Blue I'd like to sell them (or maybe some Hudey! Hudepohl beer from the Bengals last Super Bowl appearance). PBR me ASAP! I don’t intend on plotting PBR on your diagram, however I do intend on weighing in on the subject a bit. I don’t know what it is like in your neck of the woods, but the only trucker hat hipsters we have around here are between the ages of 14 and 25 and I have yet to see any of them walking around with a can (or bottle) of PBR. I see them with beer, but I think it has more to do with cost than choice. Just like you and I drank Old Milwaukee when we were younger (legalities aside) because it was the beer of choice for people without money. Once I started earning a somewhat respectable income I began to realize that OM pretty much sucks in the taste department. I would hold that the same is true about PBR. If an individual is drinking it now they probably fall into one of maybe two categories: 1. Broke 2. Drank it as a kid and are still broke. These two theories have one common denominator: Being broke.

Now I’m being a little tongue in cheek here so forgive me, but do you actually know anyone who drinks PBR because they like it or because they think it is “cool”. If that’s the case I have some old Red White & Blue I’d like to sell them (or maybe some Hudey! Hudepohl beer from the Bengals last Super Bowl appearance).

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