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	<title>Comments on: Responding to Error</title>
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	<link>http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2006/09/17/responding-to-error/</link>
	<description>faults &#124; sins &#124; abuses</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 04:50:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: JW</title>
		<link>http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2006/09/17/responding-to-error/#comment-39020</link>
		<dc:creator>JW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Sep 2006 04:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2006/09/17/responding-to-error/#comment-39020</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;They assert that studentsâ€™ sloppy inattention to writingâ€™s mechanical concerns will alienate readers far more quickly than problematic logic or infelicitous organization â€” and on that point, theyâ€™re probably right.&lt;/i&gt;

That sentence reminded me of my experience of I Am Charlotte Simmons.  I couldn't read past the third chapter in that book because I couldn't understand the voice of the hideous punctuation.  

Ever put sentences of great writers through the word grammar check for fun?  You should try it some time for some shits and giggles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>They assert that studentsâ€™ sloppy inattention to writingâ€™s mechanical concerns will alienate readers far more quickly than problematic logic or infelicitous organization â€” and on that point, theyâ€™re probably right.</i></p>
<p>That sentence reminded me of my experience of I Am Charlotte Simmons.  I couldn&#8217;t read past the third chapter in that book because I couldn&#8217;t understand the voice of the hideous punctuation.  </p>
<p>Ever put sentences of great writers through the word grammar check for fun?  You should try it some time for some shits and giggles.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2006/09/17/responding-to-error/#comment-38599</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 13:41:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2006/09/17/responding-to-error/#comment-38599</guid>
		<description>I agree Mike, and I think that efficiency is one part of it. But I also explain to my students about focus and multitasking. There is a reason why we call these mechanical problems; they require more mechanical cognitive processes; one learns to apply rule sets and other well-defined strategies for fixing. I don't think the same way about fixing grammatical errors as I do when I am focused on larger order global concerns in a draft. Continually returning to sentence level concerns involving correcting--this may also include editing awkward sentence constructions, some stylistic editing, and fine tuning the sentence level meaning (e.g., word choice)--requires a different set of cognitive processes. 

Switching back and forth between these processes in the early and middle stages of drafting not only reduces efficiency, but can block the necessary focus they need. I ask my students to consider how often they have been in the "groove" with generating ideas and working on the argument and then, after stopping to correct errors and do minor sentence level revision, lose that groove. Many will agree they have had that experience. Their muse isn't the one providing inspiration on proofreading their text :-)

BTW: Given where you are, perhaps a military analogy might also serve your point about efficiency. Working out minor tactical details can be a waste of time before one has effectively decided on a strategic plan and the overall tactical implementation since those plans are subject to change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree Mike, and I think that efficiency is one part of it. But I also explain to my students about focus and multitasking. There is a reason why we call these mechanical problems; they require more mechanical cognitive processes; one learns to apply rule sets and other well-defined strategies for fixing. I don&#8217;t think the same way about fixing grammatical errors as I do when I am focused on larger order global concerns in a draft. Continually returning to sentence level concerns involving correcting&#8211;this may also include editing awkward sentence constructions, some stylistic editing, and fine tuning the sentence level meaning (e.g., word choice)&#8211;requires a different set of cognitive processes. </p>
<p>Switching back and forth between these processes in the early and middle stages of drafting not only reduces efficiency, but can block the necessary focus they need. I ask my students to consider how often they have been in the &#8220;groove&#8221; with generating ideas and working on the argument and then, after stopping to correct errors and do minor sentence level revision, lose that groove. Many will agree they have had that experience. Their muse isn&#8217;t the one providing inspiration on proofreading their text <img src='http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>BTW: Given where you are, perhaps a military analogy might also serve your point about efficiency. Working out minor tactical details can be a waste of time before one has effectively decided on a strategic plan and the overall tactical implementation since those plans are subject to change.</p>
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		<title>By: metaspencer</title>
		<link>http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2006/09/17/responding-to-error/#comment-38417</link>
		<dc:creator>metaspencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Sep 2006 08:43:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2006/09/17/responding-to-error/#comment-38417</guid>
		<description>The two ways in which I'd not quite disagree, but footnote your post:

When error and other mechanics of illegibility are strategically inserted into a text to enhance meaning. When I teach writing, I teach students to transgress strategically -- and in that sense, waiting 'til the end to work in purposeful error makes no sense.

When "error" is, very early on, keeping a student from producing meaning. To wait 'til the end, in cases like this one, is to put of teaching a productive compositional element.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The two ways in which I&#8217;d not quite disagree, but footnote your post:</p>
<p>When error and other mechanics of illegibility are strategically inserted into a text to enhance meaning. When I teach writing, I teach students to transgress strategically &#8212; and in that sense, waiting &#8217;til the end to work in purposeful error makes no sense.</p>
<p>When &#8220;error&#8221; is, very early on, keeping a student from producing meaning. To wait &#8217;til the end, in cases like this one, is to put of teaching a productive compositional element.</p>
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		<title>By: joanna</title>
		<link>http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2006/09/17/responding-to-error/#comment-38375</link>
		<dc:creator>joanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Sep 2006 02:16:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2006/09/17/responding-to-error/#comment-38375</guid>
		<description>Sometimes I wonder about the span of time in which we expect students to overcome error--semester--versus how much time it must take for the information to be grasped and internalized , much less conveyed in their writing.  And I'm speaking about developmental students who are traditional.  They are having to learn how to be college students, writers and grammarians (well "grammarian" is a stretch).  I've grown to realize that just because a student barely squeaks by doesn't mean that he will never get it--it may simply take more time than are planned in a semester.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sometimes I wonder about the span of time in which we expect students to overcome error&#8211;semester&#8211;versus how much time it must take for the information to be grasped and internalized , much less conveyed in their writing.  And I&#8217;m speaking about developmental students who are traditional.  They are having to learn how to be college students, writers and grammarians (well &#8220;grammarian&#8221; is a stretch).  I&#8217;ve grown to realize that just because a student barely squeaks by doesn&#8217;t mean that he will never get it&#8211;it may simply take more time than are planned in a semester.</p>
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		<title>By: bradley</title>
		<link>http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2006/09/17/responding-to-error/#comment-38372</link>
		<dc:creator>bradley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Sep 2006 02:05:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2006/09/17/responding-to-error/#comment-38372</guid>
		<description>There's also Mina Shaughnessey's Errors and Expectations. It may deal primarily with basic writers, whatever the heck those are, but it's write on (poor pun intended) with your thinking Mike. Problem is, we're all too often preaching to the choir on this sort of thing. Most of my colleagues are what I'd call minimal markers, though they and I don't ignore these concerns, because they will sink a good essay, making it so some readers can't see the ideas for the errors. But if we are to simply focus on "error" then we don't help students become better logicians and rhetoricians. All too often students think of revision as maybe a spell check and a grammar check. On that point, the grammar check, when it's not turned off, works best to show that I've put two spaces between words when I want one, but not much more. It labels so many sentences as fragments when they aren't that it's pathetic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s also Mina Shaughnessey&#8217;s Errors and Expectations. It may deal primarily with basic writers, whatever the heck those are, but it&#8217;s write on (poor pun intended) with your thinking Mike. Problem is, we&#8217;re all too often preaching to the choir on this sort of thing. Most of my colleagues are what I&#8217;d call minimal markers, though they and I don&#8217;t ignore these concerns, because they will sink a good essay, making it so some readers can&#8217;t see the ideas for the errors. But if we are to simply focus on &#8220;error&#8221; then we don&#8217;t help students become better logicians and rhetoricians. All too often students think of revision as maybe a spell check and a grammar check. On that point, the grammar check, when it&#8217;s not turned off, works best to show that I&#8217;ve put two spaces between words when I want one, but not much more. It labels so many sentences as fragments when they aren&#8217;t that it&#8217;s pathetic.</p>
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		<title>By: Sharon</title>
		<link>http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2006/09/17/responding-to-error/#comment-38300</link>
		<dc:creator>Sharon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Sep 2006 16:25:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2006/09/17/responding-to-error/#comment-38300</guid>
		<description>I do lots of peer groups.  I try to float around the classroom while they are working, but it is impossible to get to everyone, and at best that method is not much more than "drive by instruction."  We all do what we can, though.

I try to help the students identify the two or three mistakes they are most likely to make, and I encourage them to edit their own papers specifically for those errors.  This works wonders when students are highly motivated.  Non-traditionals who are simply rusty from being out of school for a while often make real progress by concentrating on their own patterns of mistakes.

As for the research about direct grammatical instruction, I'm sure it is correct.  I do feel, however, that some sort of grammatical instruction has to take place for those who are struggling.  I also feel that almost any method of instruction can work for students who are highly motivated.  

The trick then is to get students motivated to improve.  I don't believe there is a catch all for that.  Nothing will ever be a substitute for an instructor who has time and gives that time to individual attention to student writing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do lots of peer groups.  I try to float around the classroom while they are working, but it is impossible to get to everyone, and at best that method is not much more than &#8220;drive by instruction.&#8221;  We all do what we can, though.</p>
<p>I try to help the students identify the two or three mistakes they are most likely to make, and I encourage them to edit their own papers specifically for those errors.  This works wonders when students are highly motivated.  Non-traditionals who are simply rusty from being out of school for a while often make real progress by concentrating on their own patterns of mistakes.</p>
<p>As for the research about direct grammatical instruction, I&#8217;m sure it is correct.  I do feel, however, that some sort of grammatical instruction has to take place for those who are struggling.  I also feel that almost any method of instruction can work for students who are highly motivated.  </p>
<p>The trick then is to get students motivated to improve.  I don&#8217;t believe there is a catch all for that.  Nothing will ever be a substitute for an instructor who has time and gives that time to individual attention to student writing.</p>
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		<title>By: mike</title>
		<link>http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2006/09/17/responding-to-error/#comment-38294</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Sep 2006 15:32:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2006/09/17/responding-to-error/#comment-38294</guid>
		<description>Sharon, how do you deal with those readability problems without being overwhelming? I'm imagining that in your case, having students partner up to do peer proofreading and copyediting is the only viable option to do correctness work before they turn in final drafts -- do you suggest to them that they make a list of the two or three types of errors their partners make the most and point to page numbers in the handbook? When you're grading, do you point to patterns of error?

And what do you think of the body of research that seems to show that direct grammatical instruction has little to no effect?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sharon, how do you deal with those readability problems without being overwhelming? I&#8217;m imagining that in your case, having students partner up to do peer proofreading and copyediting is the only viable option to do correctness work before they turn in final drafts &#8212; do you suggest to them that they make a list of the two or three types of errors their partners make the most and point to page numbers in the handbook? When you&#8217;re grading, do you point to patterns of error?</p>
<p>And what do you think of the body of research that seems to show that direct grammatical instruction has little to no effect?</p>
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		<title>By: Sharon</title>
		<link>http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2006/09/17/responding-to-error/#comment-38283</link>
		<dc:creator>Sharon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:41:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2006/09/17/responding-to-error/#comment-38283</guid>
		<description>I don't mark mistakes or talk to students about grammar in early drafts for all of the reasons you've mentioned.  I sometimes say, "You have an overwhelming number of errors.  You are going to have to proofread your final draft very carefully."  If I do give that kind of warning, I'll point out some examples, but I certainly won't go through and proofread the whole draft.

I do, however, mark mistakes on final graded drafts.  This is what is required of me in my job, and the students I have are often quite grammatically challenged.  When I was in graduate school, I remember we were asked to think about whether student errors "impeded readability."  Well, I am here to tell you that 90% or more of my students make the kind of errors that severely impede readability.  Something has to be said or done about it in the grading process.

My mother had a cross-stitched piece hanging on the wall when I was growing up that said, "I once had six theories about raising children.  I now have six children and no theories."  That's the way I feel about teaching composition.  I had a lot more theories about how it should be done before I had six sections at a time with an average of 35 people in each section, many of whom are in need of remediation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t mark mistakes or talk to students about grammar in early drafts for all of the reasons you&#8217;ve mentioned.  I sometimes say, &#8220;You have an overwhelming number of errors.  You are going to have to proofread your final draft very carefully.&#8221;  If I do give that kind of warning, I&#8217;ll point out some examples, but I certainly won&#8217;t go through and proofread the whole draft.</p>
<p>I do, however, mark mistakes on final graded drafts.  This is what is required of me in my job, and the students I have are often quite grammatically challenged.  When I was in graduate school, I remember we were asked to think about whether student errors &#8220;impeded readability.&#8221;  Well, I am here to tell you that 90% or more of my students make the kind of errors that severely impede readability.  Something has to be said or done about it in the grading process.</p>
<p>My mother had a cross-stitched piece hanging on the wall when I was growing up that said, &#8220;I once had six theories about raising children.  I now have six children and no theories.&#8221;  That&#8217;s the way I feel about teaching composition.  I had a lot more theories about how it should be done before I had six sections at a time with an average of 35 people in each section, many of whom are in need of remediation.</p>
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		<title>By: pi</title>
		<link>http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2006/09/17/responding-to-error/#comment-38222</link>
		<dc:creator>pi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Sep 2006 17:43:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2006/09/17/responding-to-error/#comment-38222</guid>
		<description>Mike, you're right.  Period.

I'd also hand your colleagues Hartwell's famous "On Grammar..." and the introduction to Errors and Expectations.  But don't hold your breath.  Despite all the educating I've tried to do at my place on this same issue, the grammar- thumpers don't want to learn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike, you&#8217;re right.  Period.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d also hand your colleagues Hartwell&#8217;s famous &#8220;On Grammar&#8230;&#8221; and the introduction to Errors and Expectations.  But don&#8217;t hold your breath.  Despite all the educating I&#8217;ve tried to do at my place on this same issue, the grammar- thumpers don&#8217;t want to learn.</p>
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		<title>By: Deb</title>
		<link>http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2006/09/17/responding-to-error/#comment-38184</link>
		<dc:creator>Deb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Sep 2006 03:04:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vitia.org/wordpress/2006/09/17/responding-to-error/#comment-38184</guid>
		<description>I'm totally with you, Mike (and Joanna and Liz and Shelly et al).  Miminal marking's my thing.

I've noticed that errors sometimes work themselves out in the process of revision anyway.  Why spend all that time/energy making students hyper-aware of them early on?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m totally with you, Mike (and Joanna and Liz and Shelly et al).  Miminal marking&#8217;s my thing.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve noticed that errors sometimes work themselves out in the process of revision anyway.  Why spend all that time/energy making students hyper-aware of them early on?</p>
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